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	<title>Comments for Deanna Hoak</title>
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	<link>http://deannahoak.com</link>
	<description>SF/F Copyeditor</description>
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		<title>Comment on CMS, Novels, and Formal Writing by --E</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2011/03/29/cms-novels-and-formal-writing/comment-page-1/#comment-202143</link>
		<dc:creator>--E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2012 14:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=997#comment-202143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Deanna, I suspect that most managing editors don&#039;t give it all that much thought when they say &quot;Follow CMS.&quot; You&#039;re assuming a level of calculation that, in my experience, simply isn&#039;t happening. They use CMS because that&#039;s what the publishing house has used for a zillion years, and what all the other publishing houses have used for a zillion years, etc., etc.

Remember that most publishers of fiction didn&#039;t start out that way. Publishing is chock full of crap that gets perpetuated because &quot;that&#039;s how we&#039;ve always done it.&quot; Everyone is too overworked and underpaid to take a lot of time formalizing changes in practice and rewriting procedural documents. (Oh, holy Crom, if only I had the time for that!)

Consider also that CMS is published by an academic press. A HUGE academic publisher with a large trade list, but nonetheless academic. The staff are the writers of the book, and it stands to reason that their own manual would be oriented more toward academic publishing (&quot;formal writing&quot;) than not.

Speaking strictly from the concerns of my own academic-publishing, managing-ed staff: more than anything, they want &lt;i&gt;consistency&lt;/i&gt;. Preferably consistency across all our books. (But we&#039;ll reluctantly settle for consistency within each book under certain circumstances.) If one&#039;s paramount criterion is &quot;institutional consistency,&quot; then one tends to be prescriptivist.

Fiction is, by definition, not consistent between books. It&#039;s antithetical to art to make all works conform to the same style of writing. Fiction publishers who don&#039;t know this are, in a word, ignorant. Fortunately, the vast majority of them are savvy to this and are only looking for basic consistency (e.g. is the character&#039;s name spelled the same throughout); plot- and story-logic; and grammar and punctuation that facilitate, rather than impede, meaning between the writer and reader.

I should note that what facilitates or impedes meaning depends entirely on what meaning the fiction writer is trying to convey. That&#039;s where a copyeditor proves her chops: in identifying what the author&#039;s aim is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deanna, I suspect that most managing editors don&#8217;t give it all that much thought when they say &#8220;Follow CMS.&#8221; You&#8217;re assuming a level of calculation that, in my experience, simply isn&#8217;t happening. They use CMS because that&#8217;s what the publishing house has used for a zillion years, and what all the other publishing houses have used for a zillion years, etc., etc.</p>
<p>Remember that most publishers of fiction didn&#8217;t start out that way. Publishing is chock full of crap that gets perpetuated because &#8220;that&#8217;s how we&#8217;ve always done it.&#8221; Everyone is too overworked and underpaid to take a lot of time formalizing changes in practice and rewriting procedural documents. (Oh, holy Crom, if only I had the time for that!)</p>
<p>Consider also that CMS is published by an academic press. A HUGE academic publisher with a large trade list, but nonetheless academic. The staff are the writers of the book, and it stands to reason that their own manual would be oriented more toward academic publishing (&#8220;formal writing&#8221;) than not.</p>
<p>Speaking strictly from the concerns of my own academic-publishing, managing-ed staff: more than anything, they want <i>consistency</i>. Preferably consistency across all our books. (But we&#8217;ll reluctantly settle for consistency within each book under certain circumstances.) If one&#8217;s paramount criterion is &#8220;institutional consistency,&#8221; then one tends to be prescriptivist.</p>
<p>Fiction is, by definition, not consistent between books. It&#8217;s antithetical to art to make all works conform to the same style of writing. Fiction publishers who don&#8217;t know this are, in a word, ignorant. Fortunately, the vast majority of them are savvy to this and are only looking for basic consistency (e.g. is the character&#8217;s name spelled the same throughout); plot- and story-logic; and grammar and punctuation that facilitate, rather than impede, meaning between the writer and reader.</p>
<p>I should note that what facilitates or impedes meaning depends entirely on what meaning the fiction writer is trying to convey. That&#8217;s where a copyeditor proves her chops: in identifying what the author&#8217;s aim is.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Copyediting compliments from Ernest Cline, author of Ready Player One by David Eubanks</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2010/12/28/copyediting-compliments-from-ernest-cline-author-of-ready-player-one/comment-page-1/#comment-202142</link>
		<dc:creator>David Eubanks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2012 10:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=986#comment-202142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kudos on the work for Ready Player One. I read it on my iPad, which I take just about everywhere. I started developing an itch in meetings (where I really should have been paying attention) to flip over to the Kindle app and read another chapter. As a child of the 80s, it was a hoot to remember dropping all those quarters.

Best,

dave]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kudos on the work for Ready Player One. I read it on my iPad, which I take just about everywhere. I started developing an itch in meetings (where I really should have been paying attention) to flip over to the Kindle app and read another chapter. As a child of the 80s, it was a hoot to remember dropping all those quarters.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>dave</p>
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		<title>Comment on CMS, Novels, and Formal Writing by Gabrielle Harbowy</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2011/03/29/cms-novels-and-formal-writing/comment-page-1/#comment-202135</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabrielle Harbowy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=997#comment-202135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As a copyeditor, I value CMS as a starting point and a base to work from. In fiction editing, especially in genre fiction where there is so much made-up worldbuilding, I also use my own judgment and work to preserve the author&#039;s style. Where I really need it is for things like punctuation and formatting where no one&#039;s quite sure what the rule is, and both ways look wrong. For that, it&#039;s really helpful to have a guide to fall back on, so I can&#039;t say that use of CMS is outdated or wrong, just that we need our employers to accept that there are exceptions.

Which is to say, I think CMS has a lot of value, but that&#039;s because publishers give me the leeway to use my own discretion about when to follow it, as long as the author and I can back up our choices by showing how they help the integrity of the story.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a copyeditor, I value CMS as a starting point and a base to work from. In fiction editing, especially in genre fiction where there is so much made-up worldbuilding, I also use my own judgment and work to preserve the author&#8217;s style. Where I really need it is for things like punctuation and formatting where no one&#8217;s quite sure what the rule is, and both ways look wrong. For that, it&#8217;s really helpful to have a guide to fall back on, so I can&#8217;t say that use of CMS is outdated or wrong, just that we need our employers to accept that there are exceptions.</p>
<p>Which is to say, I think CMS has a lot of value, but that&#8217;s because publishers give me the leeway to use my own discretion about when to follow it, as long as the author and I can back up our choices by showing how they help the integrity of the story.</p>
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		<title>Comment on CMS, Novels, and Formal Writing by AnWulf</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2011/03/29/cms-novels-and-formal-writing/comment-page-1/#comment-201974</link>
		<dc:creator>AnWulf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 05:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=997#comment-201974</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As someone who has written research papers and legal briefs, I can tell you that there is a world of difference in the style of how they are written compared to the novel I&#039;m writing. But we all know that that! Do we not?

As a free-speller, I do let my beta readers know which words are intentionally spelled the way that spell them. Don&#039;t worry, I&#039;m not too radical in my novel.

The main thing is that the story flows. I sometimes use too many &quot;old&quot; words and my beta readers tell me ease up on them so that they&#039;re not running to a wordbook every other page.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who has written research papers and legal briefs, I can tell you that there is a world of difference in the style of how they are written compared to the novel I&#8217;m writing. But we all know that that! Do we not?</p>
<p>As a free-speller, I do let my beta readers know which words are intentionally spelled the way that spell them. Don&#8217;t worry, I&#8217;m not too radical in my novel.</p>
<p>The main thing is that the story flows. I sometimes use too many &#8220;old&#8221; words and my beta readers tell me ease up on them so that they&#8217;re not running to a wordbook every other page.</p>
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		<title>Comment on CMS, Novels, and Formal Writing by Clifton Hill</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2011/03/29/cms-novels-and-formal-writing/comment-page-1/#comment-201959</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifton Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 16:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=997#comment-201959</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t know much about copyediting, but what you say seems to ring true. I&#039;d hate reading books if they were all the same. All sounds like a matter of extreme subjectivity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t know much about copyediting, but what you say seems to ring true. I&#8217;d hate reading books if they were all the same. All sounds like a matter of extreme subjectivity.</p>
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		<title>Comment on CMS, Novels, and Formal Writing by INTJ</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2011/03/29/cms-novels-and-formal-writing/comment-page-1/#comment-201957</link>
		<dc:creator>INTJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 06:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=997#comment-201957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Deanna. I&#039;m an INTJ too and lately have been reading a lot of Philip K. Dick. As I read this post, I thought it would really be sad if writing like his was watered down by trying to force it into adherence with some formal rules. As you say, an author&#039;s voice, especially in a genre like sci fi, often best reveals itself in the ways that they bend the rules.

It&#039;s interesting that as INTJ&#039;s we both come at it that way, especially since I think a lot of people would expect INTJ&#039;s to be perfectionistic and demand things be technically correct. But for me it&#039;s all about the goal of the project and the goal of a sci fi book isn&#039;t correctness, it&#039;s to entertain, provoke thought and help the reader lose him or herself (not themselves haha) in the story.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Deanna. I&#8217;m an INTJ too and lately have been reading a lot of Philip K. Dick. As I read this post, I thought it would really be sad if writing like his was watered down by trying to force it into adherence with some formal rules. As you say, an author&#8217;s voice, especially in a genre like sci fi, often best reveals itself in the ways that they bend the rules.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting that as INTJ&#8217;s we both come at it that way, especially since I think a lot of people would expect INTJ&#8217;s to be perfectionistic and demand things be technically correct. But for me it&#8217;s all about the goal of the project and the goal of a sci fi book isn&#8217;t correctness, it&#8217;s to entertain, provoke thought and help the reader lose him or herself (not themselves haha) in the story.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Starting a sentence with an -ing phrase by Griffin Barber</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2006/06/11/starting-a-sentence-with-an-i-ingi-phrase/comment-page-1/#comment-201955</link>
		<dc:creator>Griffin Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Sep 2011 00:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=230#comment-201955</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Startling, this post.

Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Startling, this post.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Understanding Your Copyedited Manuscript by O How the Mighty Have Fallen: A Copyediting Homily in One Very Long Act &#124; EMU&#039;s Debuts</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2006/10/16/understanding-your-copyedited-manuscript/comment-page-1/#comment-201950</link>
		<dc:creator>O How the Mighty Have Fallen: A Copyediting Homily in One Very Long Act &#124; EMU&#039;s Debuts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/2006/10/16/understanding-your-copyedited-manuscript-2/#comment-201950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] that you don’t suck, and your book will be that much better when you’re done. * Then read this. * Then, if you were given no other instructions on what the heck to do with the manuscript, keep [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that you don’t suck, and your book will be that much better when you’re done. * Then read this. * Then, if you were given no other instructions on what the heck to do with the manuscript, keep [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Importance of Style Sheets by Pamela</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2006/03/30/the-importance-of-style-sheets/comment-page-2/#comment-201873</link>
		<dc:creator>Pamela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jul 2011 23:41:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=187#comment-201873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Deanna, 

I am enrolled in a proofreading and copyediting course. My professor recommended this particular posting since we are currently learning about style sheets. 

I found your info very thorough and helpful. I have a much clearer picture of what goes into a style sheet and how they are created. 

As a SF/F reader I agree with you on the point you made about style guides not always being a good fit for the genre. So is there a particular guide that lends itself to sci fi better than Chicago?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Deanna, </p>
<p>I am enrolled in a proofreading and copyediting course. My professor recommended this particular posting since we are currently learning about style sheets. </p>
<p>I found your info very thorough and helpful. I have a much clearer picture of what goes into a style sheet and how they are created. </p>
<p>As a SF/F reader I agree with you on the point you made about style guides not always being a good fit for the genre. So is there a particular guide that lends itself to sci fi better than Chicago?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on CMS, Novels, and Formal Writing by Carma Spence</title>
		<link>http://deannahoak.com/2011/03/29/cms-novels-and-formal-writing/comment-page-1/#comment-201862</link>
		<dc:creator>Carma Spence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jun 2011 18:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deannahoak.com/?p=997#comment-201862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm. Interesting points. Being trained with AP Style I&#039;ve never felt comfortable putting a comma in front on an &quot;and&quot; ... which is about all my familiarity with CMS (which, as an acronym meant &quot;content management system&quot; to me at first glance). That said, I agree that fiction writing is rarely formal ... unless on purpose to serve the story, so confining it to grammar indiscriminately could be detrimental to the storytelling. Then again, I&#039;m kind of an odd puppy, so I&#039;d take what I say with a grain of salt. :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm. Interesting points. Being trained with AP Style I&#8217;ve never felt comfortable putting a comma in front on an &#8220;and&#8221; &#8230; which is about all my familiarity with CMS (which, as an acronym meant &#8220;content management system&#8221; to me at first glance). That said, I agree that fiction writing is rarely formal &#8230; unless on purpose to serve the story, so confining it to grammar indiscriminately could be detrimental to the storytelling. Then again, I&#8217;m kind of an odd puppy, so I&#8217;d take what I say with a grain of salt. :-)</p>
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